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  #1  
Old 12-22-2010, 12:56 PM
Green Dragon Green Dragon is offline
AL Swackhammer , power freak
 
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Default vintage HPR plans / info

Might be beating an old horse ehre - some of these I have begged for in the past


Currently working on my ongoing research for old / early HPR designs / plans.

Specifically, my wish list includes :


Astro Dynamics - ANY

Eagle Aerospace - ANY

XPRS ( Xperimental Rocket Systems ) - ANY

SSRS / Crown - LASOR 164 , Spartan, Unicorn

Pro- Jet / Composite Dynamics - Starfire

Stargate - Aero-Ram

ACE - Fugue , ALLEGRO LARGO ( desperate for this one , Lucerne
Special , ? Squid

Model Aviation Fuels - Sentry, Minotaur


I have a few plans for trade, info available, so send requests ... looking to save the info for posterity, and build some of these LDRS 1 candidates

~ AL Swackhammer

Tripoli 090
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  #2  
Old 12-22-2010, 03:21 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Dragon
Astro Dynamics - ANY

Pro- Jet / Composite Dynamics - Starfire

Stargate - Aero-Ram

ACE - Fugue , ALLEGRO LARGO ( desperate for this one , Lucerne
Special , ? Squid

~ AL Swackhammer
Tripoli 090

Hey Al. There is an Astro Dynamics ad on the back of a CRm in I think June of 82 or 83 from which you can gleen some info. I don't have much.

On the CD Starfire, is that the backward fin rocket or the BT-9 minimum diameter one? If the former, there is an ad showing it for CD t-shirts in CRm I forget the date, and it was a BT-70HD 17.5 inches long and the foam ogive 2.5:1 nose cone. I can post a NC photo if you don't already have that.

Stargate got its start from the parts rubble of CD so that tube is also BT-70HD (almost exact USR BT-22 modern tube), and they ran an ad for that rocket in CRm so you ought to be able to get fin sizes and shapes by measuring photos or drawings and scaling to known part dimensions like tube OD 2.25" for example.

The Ace Fugue is a BT-23 and is 34" long with a 6" base shroud to BT-11 and a 5:1 handmade redwood nose cone. The Pinnacle cones are close but the tube diameters are not. The fins are triangular with the rear trailing edge convex curved a bit (90 degrees at each intersection). There may be photos in early CRm's.

The Squid is easy to duplicate because it uses an Estes PNC-80 (alpha) and a BT-80-34 HD and 8 18" x 1/4" dowels and there are good photos to replicate it.

http://www.v-serv.com/crp/CRm/4-83/CRm.4-83.26.w.gif

The Allegro Largo I seem to recall used 4x BT-18 to a single BT-39. The BT-18's would be 34" again, two BT-39's at 34" and a 16" handmade 2x2" redwood core, balsa exterior nose cone. Thus a redwood tip.

I think it used scaled up Fugue fins ala the Chromatic Fantasy.

BT-39 is 3.90" ID x 050 wall
BT-23 is 2.34" one or the other 050 wall
BT-18 is 1.80" ID x 050 wall
BT-70HD is 2.175" ID and 040 wall
BT-80HD is I forget the ID and 040 wall

http://www.v-serv.com/crp/CRm

Jerry

TRA 012 blackballed by the same guy that blackballed Scott Dixon and others. TRA refuses to apologize, and they are wrong to do so.
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Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 12-22-2010 at 03:45 PM.
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  #3  
Old 12-22-2010, 04:21 PM
Green Dragon Green Dragon is offline
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Jerry.

Good to see you alive n kickin' .. suppose if anyone has historical HPR stuff it might be you - although who thought to make patterns and detailed notes back then, I know we didn't.

going to comment inline below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
Hey Al. There is an Astro Dynamics ad on the back of a CRm in I think June of 82 or 83 from which you can gleen some info. I don't have much.

- will have to check that, I have not quite all the CRm issues, in fact got a couple form you as I recall, others from Chris.
I do recall an Astro Dynamics ad in Model Rocketeer, too.. could maybe extrapolate from those, if need be, big thing is fins, to get dead on - I always hope someone out there has the info to work it up perfect, otherwise I may wind up doing some 'from pics' buildups.
( of note on the AD kits - they got some pictured in MR that were 'clearly non model rockets' - to quote Pat - same things they busted on you, and Chris ( LDRS1 ads ) for, was a crazy world then .

On the CD Starfire, is that the backward fin rocket or the BT-9 minimum diameter one? If the former, there is an ad showing it for CD t-shirts in CRm I forget the date, and it was a BT-70HD 17.5 inches long and the foam ogive 2.5:1 nose cone. I can post a NC photo if you don't already have that.

- ok, I have a 1982 CD catalog with pics, it;'s the forward swept fin bird, I have NO idea on the fin patterns, but maybe I can get close, if you;re sure on the tube length - one length at 17.5 " . I still have one foam cone in a box someplace, so can get the length from that .

Stargate got its start from the parts rubble of CD so that tube is also BT-70HD (almost exact USR BT-22 modern tube), and they ran an ad for that rocket in CRm so you ought to be able to get fin sizes and shapes by measuring photos or drawings and scaling to known part dimensions like tube OD 2.25" for example.

- Stargate was,indeed, CD parts, that I knew, including CD foam cones, the one I have is from my Stargate Aero-Ram, but as noted above, we neglected to make patterns for future posterity, hence my fervor now.

The Ace Fugue is a BT-23 and is 34" long with a 6" base shroud to BT-11 and a 5:1 handmade redwood nose cone. The Pinnacle cones are close but the tube diameters are not. The fins are triangular with the rear trailing edge convex curved a bit (90 degrees at each intersection). There may be photos in early CRm's.

- this helps muchly, length of shroud was unknown ,as well as BT lengths - no payload ? . still not certain on the fins, but will see what I come up with . 5:1 cone Gordy can do, if nothign else. maybe not in redwood .

The Squid is easy to duplicate because it uses an Estes PNC-80 (alpha) and a BT-80-34 HD and 8 18" x 1/4" dowels and there are good photos to replicate it.

- Squid I have never been able to get dowel info on, so now I htink I can do it - got info from another source it had a drilled balsa block to stick the dowels in ? but is that true ? ( lot of work to machine ) . any idea of the angles ?

http://www.v-serv.com/crp/CRm/4-83/CRm.4-83.26.w.gif

The Allegro Largo I seem to recall used 4x BT-18 to a single BT-39. The BT-18's would be 34" again, two BT-39's at 34" and a 16" handmade 2x2" redwood core, balsa exterior nose cone. Thus a redwood tip.

- Allegro Largo, per Crm pics, and online here : http://www.northernohiotra.com/history/ldrsgallery.html
suggest a THREE cluster, CRm states multiple places that they were flwon on '3xG62', etc....triple 1.8/1.9" tubes seem to fit nicely into a BT39, so seems to make sense, not sure on the mounts, 29mm in the 1.8 ? or 38 ? ( this being pre-38mm, I thought ) .
I never saw one of those redwood tip cones in person, I have one with a teflon or nylon tip, hand turned, and I have a few 2.6" - last batch Korey did, iirc.

I think it used scaled up Fugue fins ala the Chromatic Fantasy.

- looks like triangle fins, ala the original Allegro, would be easy to copy from a good pic, maybe, knowing Korey, they come out standard type dimensions. ( ie: nice increments, 2.25" vs 2.18". )

BT-39 is 3.90" ID x 050 wall

- same as modern 4" ( or close enough, same tubing Kline pioneered and Loc,etc copied )

BT-23 is 2.34" one or the other 050 wall

hmm... 2.34" OD in the original Enerjet 2250 tubes - and FSI tubes. never put that together with the BT23 designation. I have some 2.4" tubes I got from Chris when NCR went under, always figured they were same as Ace - I have an Ace 2.4" Allegro cone ( long balsa one ), and it;s tight but fits. thought they were 2.4", so will have to mic one.

BT-18 is 1.80" ID x 050 wall

- current Aerotech tubing ? or close ( NCR cones fit AT tubing, so guessing they are close ) .

BT-70HD is 2.175" ID and 040 wall

- as USR uses, NOT 2.25" loc, or AAA 2.17 OD thick wall.... BT70HD as offered by Semroc is real close, I believe.

BT-80HD is I forget the ID and 040 wall

- question here is if the wall was thicker inner or outward then Estes, ( ie: Loc tubes are same ID as Estes, whereas AAA tubes and NCR tubes were same OD as Estes. guessing same ID if you noted Squid used PNC-80, would make sense, same as the BT-3.9 fits PNC-101.

http://www.v-serv.com/crp/CRm

Jerry




~ AL

TRA 090
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  #4  
Old 12-22-2010, 04:29 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Dragon
Good to see you alive n kickin' .. suppose if anyone has historical HPR stuff it might be you - although who thought to make patterns and detailed notes back then, I know we didn't.
I wrote the Ace instructions. If you send over a keg of good beer, three really organized hot chicks for a month or two we could rummage through a bunch of "treasures" and digitize it all for future consumption.

Perspective matters. Ace was already becoming somewhat popular in what would later be called HPR in 1978. TRA didn't really get going till 85-86, and NAR of course banned anything resembling HPR. The latest post by Trip Barber extolls the virtues of HPR and warns against being biased against one form of sport rocketry over another. My how times have changed. Everything that guy touches turns to gold.

Jerry
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The O administration believed in tax, spend, borrow, fine, mandate, monologue. D voters will soon be very happy with the election outcome!
Model rocketry is as safe as safe can be defined in human existence. Bow and pray: GH Stine, Orville, Vern, Lee, Lonnie, Carl, etc. No, really.

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 12-22-2010 at 05:18 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-22-2010, 05:10 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
it;'s the forward swept fin bird, I have NO idea on the fin patterns, but maybe I can get close


The pattern I drew for the t-shirt ad (in dragon photo first 3 issues or so) was from a fin!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
Stargate Aero-Ram, but as noted above, we neglected to make patterns for future posterity, hence my fervor now.


Larry Broadbent made accurate drawings for his CRm ads. They are accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
no payload ? . still not certain on the fins,


I vaguely recall 9" length for the fins. CR not at shroud inflection point to allow for the roots to go up in a bit. There is a photo in CRm #1 with Gary and Melodi holding a black Ace Fugue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
Squid I have never been able to get dowel info on, so now I htink I can do it - got info from another source it had a drilled balsa block to stick the dowels in ? but is that true ? ( lot of work to machine ) . any idea of the angles ?


The angle is measurable on the photo I gave you. The rear of the tube had a ring and there was another ring about 2" or so up on the BT-11 mount, so that distance, whatever it really was, set the angle. Use a reamer to start the holes. They become elipsoid by force. Secret Ace Squid production info posted in public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
Allegro Largo, per Crm pics, and online here : http://www.northernohiotra.com/history/ldrsgallery.html
suggest a THREE cluster, CRm states multiple places that they were flwon on '3xG62', etc....triple 1.8/1.9" tubes seem to fit nicely into a BT39, so seems to make sense, not sure on the mounts, 29mm in the 1.8 ? or 38 ? ( this being pre-38mm, I thought ) .


That's right, three not 4. Whatever fits comfortably. The 1.8" is an egglofter tube BTW. It later became the basis for 54mm casting tube.

Korey was a heavy 1.5" 38mm advocate and felt it should be mass-market. He is right. I popularized the size, had motors made to it by IBCo and others and it was of course copied by others.

The Allegro Largo was for 29mm motors, such as the CD G62 or the EJ G76. There were a limited number of CD#1 H's still and IBCo was really there with the 29mm H160 and 38mm I200 as flown at LDRS-1 years later. There were some Crown/SSRS H's as well but not many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
2.34" OD in the original Enerjet 2250 tubes - and FSI tubes. never put that together with the BT23 designation. I have some 2.4" tubes I got from Chris when NCR went under, always figured they were same as Ace - I have an Ace 2.4" Allegro cone ( long balsa one ), and it;s tight but fits. thought they were 2.4", so will have to mic one.


NCR were "bad clones" and should be ignored for all historical purposes. The EJ tube is 2.25 x 2.34 hence the 2250 designation.

Ace was 2.34 ID and did not slide in. It was 050 wall.

BTW EJ 2650 was 2.65" ID and about 2.74" OD. Minimax style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
BT-70HD is 2.175" ID and 040 wall - as USR uses, NOT 2.25" loc, or AAA 2.17 OD thick wall.... BT70HD as offered by Semroc is real close, I believe.


Semroc is close. LOC went the route of being as proprietary as possible. They have 2.15" ID 54mm not 2.175, 1.52" ID (a good size), 2.54, 3.00, 3.90. Nose cones to fit. They all have similar thick walls IIRC. PML and others cloned their sizes so there is compatibility there.

USR BT-22 2.175" fits 3x24mm
USR BT-26 2.60" fits 4x24mm and 3x29mm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al
BT-80HD - question here is if the wall was thicker inner or outward then Estes,


Same ID as BT-80 but thicker wall, hence BT-80 HD. Hey Estes, wanna sell me 1000 PNC-80 alpha?

Just hysterical Jerry - er historical

IBCo had the first I69 in history . . . . 38mm
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Exemptions not regulations. Please support DOT treating slow burning solids as not subject to HMR. 2015 NAR President declines!
U.S. Rockets instaship. http://bit.ly/1aca7mA Please buy some rockets.
The O administration believed in tax, spend, borrow, fine, mandate, monologue. D voters will soon be very happy with the election outcome!
Model rocketry is as safe as safe can be defined in human existence. Bow and pray: GH Stine, Orville, Vern, Lee, Lonnie, Carl, etc. No, really.

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 12-22-2010 at 05:28 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-22-2010, 05:37 PM
Green Dragon Green Dragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
I wrote the Ace instructions. If you send over a keg of good beer, three really organized hot chicks for a month or two we could rummage through a bunch of "treasures" and digitize it all for future consumption.

Perspective matters. Ace was already becoming somewhat popular in what would later be called HPR in 1978. TRA didn't really get going till 85-86, and NAR of course banned anything resembling HPR. The latest post by Trip Barber extolls the virtues of HPR and warns against being biased against one form of sport rocketry over another. My how times have changed. Everything that guy touches turns to gold.

Jerry



Will see what I can do about the chicks.

agree re: perspective... and what is considered HPR, I was in on the near ground floor, idolizing the west coast crazies, and flying 4-5-10 D12 clusters circa 1979-80, along with the occasional Pro-Jet or SSRS motor ( cash was short then ) . Way before Tripoli got rolling ( my first LDRS was 4, however ) . Do recal the 'who flew the G ' ( and some flew at our local NAR meets too, just we were small section . I also started making motors in about 85 or 86 with tech help from undisclosed source . taboo even in Tripoli for many years.

Thanks again for any help / scans / info - I'd love to save this while info exists, not wait til it's even more obscure / lost to try and dig it up for 'hpr-yorp' .

~ AL

Last edited by Green Dragon : 12-22-2010 at 06:45 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:59 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Historical side note. John Davis of CD (#2) tasked Roger Johnson and I to sell Pro-Jets to every hobby store in the west. He did norcal and I did socal. We sold thousands of motors and it was an impressive accomplishment. These were mainly 24mm E20, E45, F20 and 29mm F45. The 18mm D was not prime time. The 160 N-s G was California compatible interestingly but was forsaken by NAR. The CD 18mm D was CA certified but not NAR certified ironically so they were sold as boutique motors. We sold a lot more G's.

Jerry
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine

Larry Broadbent made accurate drawings for his CRm ads. They are accurate. {SNIP}

Just hysterical Jerry - er historical

IBCo had the first I69 in history . . . . 38mm


Jerry,

I bought a bunch of CD parts from Larry Broadbent back in the day. The foam nose cones were pretty cool and I think Larry was actually pouring those himself. The last pour it looked like he just poured the foam into a tube coupler to finish the shoulder off. He did have a good stock of CD parts though and I built a few clones with tubes and parts I purchased directly from him and had good email conversations with him.

The 2250 clone he sold me parts for was actually a reduced size and was much the same as the NCR kit for 3x24mm motors. He did include nice reproductions of the EnerJet 2250 and 2650 scale drawings from Gary R. and a scan of the 2250 instructions. Only other drawings I had were stamped with AAA on them from Al Andrake so it was nice to have a clean copy. I was excited to have that because very little information was available to me at the time when I built those first EnerJet clones .....

Wish I had access to all the cool motors you guys were flying out on the west coast in the 80's. All I could get my hands on were the SSRS/Crown E and F motors direct from Mark Mahyle and FSI was plentiful at the LHS.

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Old 12-23-2010, 08:10 AM
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I haven't heard from Larry for a few years. I wonder what he's up to?
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:59 AM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snaquin
The last pour it looked like he just poured the foam into a tube coupler to finish the shoulder off.

The 2250 clone he sold me parts for was actually a reduced size and was much the same as the NCR kit for 3x24mm motors.

I was excited to have that because very little information was available to me at the time when I built those first EnerJet clones .....
I have attached some photos of Composite Dynamics (#2-Torrance-Davis) nose cones. The foam nose cone for BT-72 (BT-70HD) side and end views. I also attached a photo of the 1" OD 24mm rocket resin nose cone. This one is an engineering sample and has no attachment method installed. It has also been repurposed several times over the years and cannot be destroyed.

The 2250 had motor tubes far too big to fit in the main tube so had to be squished to fit. The NCR "clone" and the Stargate "clone" are NOT 2250's.

Very little information was available to anyone. I think I did better than most because my parents drove me to Indian School Road in Phoenix one summer where I bought stuff directly from Lee. I figure in hindsight he was basically making kits from scratch in the back for me as I waited. I got some F67's, G76's a 2250, a 2650, a 1340, and a few stock Enerjet kits as well. That was the only reliable way to get real literature because he was basically going into the rare files to pull something out quick to look professional. The fin patterns were hand drawn on balsa by pencil in arbitrary spots for example.

The Rosenfield drawings are the best data that ever existed for those kits.

Jerry
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