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  #1  
Old 12-29-2016, 09:54 PM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Lightbulb [FOUND] Scan of Estes BBZ fins and decals w/ruler

JimZ site has the instructions , and the decals, for Estes Blue Bird Zero (1335). However the drawings of the fins don't cut it for me. I'd like to get a scan of the fins either in the matrix, or out w/a ruler for my sim of it. If the fins are out of the matrix, the ruler against the root edge works best. The decals aren't measured either, so they can't be scaled properly for the sim.

Semroc's BBZ is not a direct clone, and thus won't work for my purposes.
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Last edited by K'Tesh : 10-26-2017 at 03:04 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:00 AM
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Gus Gus is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K'Tesh
Semroc's BBZ is not a direct clone, and thus won't work for my purposes.


Carl always seemed pretty fanatical about making faithful reproductions. How does the Semroc Bluebird Zero differ from the Estes version?
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  #3  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:40 AM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
Carl always seemed pretty fanatical about making faithful reproductions. How does the Semroc Bluebird Zero differ from the Estes version?

Have you ever read the instructions of a Semroc Retro Reproduction?

They were designed to capture the essence of the kit, and are not a direct copy. As such the fins are typically altered to avoid the legal repercussions of selling a copy.

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/attac...achmentid=45732

While the image I've linked to isn't of the BBZ's plans, you can see what Carl wrote about the Retro-Repro line.
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."


Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.

Last edited by K'Tesh : 12-30-2016 at 06:37 AM.
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  #4  
Old 12-31-2016, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K'Tesh
...
They were designed to capture the essence of the kit, and are not a direct copy. As such the fins are typically altered to avoid the legal repercussions of selling a copy.

K'Tesh,

I have very fond memories of Carl and one of the things I most admired about him was his engineer's desire to "get it right." Carl made significant effort to make Semroc's Retro-Repro kits as exact to the original as he could. In fact, on many occasions he borrowed kits from a number of us on this forum to be sure his versions were dimensionally accurate. I also remember a number of conversations we had about which version of a kit he would replicate (plastic vs balsa nosecone shape, etc.).

But to be sure I wasn't misremembering I contacted Bruce as to whether the kits were intentionally altered from the originals. This is what he responded:

"No they were to original spec. We changed some materials in the kits of course to make them better like adding Kevlar and such. The instructions were never copied they were all done from scratch to make them better. The kits had not been produced for many years so they did not have them in commerce which meant they were available. Most of the dies and all parts and instructions were thrown away by Estes. Never any legal battles for us."

So if you find that the Semroc kit fins for the Bluebird Zero are different from the original Estes kit, I'd be very surprised.

-my thanks to Bruce for his response and to his Mom and Dad for all the great memories they provided.

Steve
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  #5  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:25 PM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Hi Steve,

Let's just be clear, I'm not trying to put down Carl, or Semroc. If I have a gripe with anyone, it's the people whose .rkt files on RocketReviews are just plain wrong. Fins that are clearly the wrong shape, nosecones that have profiles that don't match the real thing.

While I don't have a BBZ's fins to demonstrate this, I do have the Estes/Semroc Omega kits that I've worked on.

Based on scans (I made personally) of Estes original K-52P fins, the dimensions I've got are as follows.

Sustainer's fins:
Root Edge .. 3.125"
Span .......... 2.31"
Tip Edge....... 2.063"

Booster's Fins:
Root edge .. 3.625"
Span ............ 2.813"
Tip Edge ..... 2.563"


Compared to the Semroc Omega (KV-64)'s fins (based on a .pdf pattern provided by Randy Boadway):

Sustainer's fins:
Root Edge .. 3.1"
Span ............ 2.309"
Tip Edge ..... 2.019"

Booster's Fins:
Root edge .. 3.6"
Span ............ 2.555"
Tip Edge ..... 2.546"


Sure the differences aren't that great, but that's not what I'm trying to achieve here. I'm trying to create the definitive simulation of the kit as it originally appeared.

I'll state this again (not directed at anyone in particular)... Cloning kits that are in production is uncool. Support our vendors, if they go bust, we all lose.

I'll also toss in a thank you to Carl, Sheryl, and Bruce Mclawthorn, and Randy Boadway, as well as the people of Estes who have all provided us with so many fond memories.

Happy New Year!
Jim
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."


Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.
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  #6  
Old 01-01-2017, 12:28 AM
Sheryl@Semroc Sheryl@Semroc is offline
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Thank you Steve for your kind words. Jim, keep in mind that after Estes produced several of one kit, the dimensions changed because of the wear of the wheel on the nose cone machine and the fin tool guide they used. If you're lucky enough to have the first ones produced , you would have the correct dimensions. Carl and Vern talked about this very thing.

PS. May the new year bring all our friends health and happiness in 2017.
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  #7  
Old 01-01-2017, 12:44 AM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheryl@Semroc
Thank you Steve for your kind words. Jim, keep in mind that after Estes produced several of one kit, the dimensions changed because of the wear of the wheel on the nose cone machine and the fin tool guide they used. If you're lucky enough to have the first ones produced , you would have the correct dimensions. Carl and Vern talked about this very thing.

PS. May the new year bring all our friends health and happiness in 2017.


Thank You Sheryl!

I hope that you don't think that I'm disparaging on the Semroc line of products. I do appreciate them, and all the work that you, Carl, Bruce, and Randy have done.

Have a Safe, Healthy, and Happy New Year!
__________________
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."


Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.
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  #8  
Old 01-01-2017, 11:32 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is online now
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This seems like an exercise in FUTILITY at best.
Quibbling over 25 THOUSANDTHS of an inch on fin dimensions for a HOBBY rocket?
C'mon noww.
That's being very SHELDON-esque.
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  #9  
Old 01-01-2017, 11:53 AM
Woody's Workshop Woody's Workshop is offline
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I can only say that when I cut 3 or 4 fins from a sheet of balsa,
then clamp them to sand all the edges to make sure they are all the same size,
I am WAY far more than .025" off on the duts alone.
I do try to adjust for this by cutting the fins all 1/16 to 1/8 inches larger than the pattern.

Happy New Years!
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  #10  
Old 01-01-2017, 02:19 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is online now
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+1 to what Woody just said.
I don't think even via laser-cutting you could ensure BALSA would have a repeatability of 0.025".
Just not possible due to varying moisture content and density.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and NEVER touch the brake !!!
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If you are NOT FLYING LOW in the left lane, you need to GET THE #$&@ OUT of it !

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, if you have to ask, you probably aren't
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